[BCAB] Basic questions About the Kindle Mel Spooner 06 Sep 2011 11:38 BST
Re: [BCAB] Basic questions About the Kindle Ian Macrae 06 Sep 2011 12:17 BST
Re: [BCAB] Basic questions About the Kindle Nick.Adamson@generaldynamics.uk.com 06 Sep 2011 13:34 BST
Re: [BCAB] Basic questions About the Kindle David Griffith 07 Sep 2011 15:45 BST
Re: [BCAB] Basic questions About the Kindle Ian Macrae 07 Sep 2011 15:54 BST
Re: [BCAB] Basic questions About the Kindle Graham Page 07 Sep 2011 16:11 BST
Re: [BCAB] Basic questions About the Kindle Sue & Ian 06 Sep 2011 12:21 BST
Re: [BCAB] Basic questions About the Kindle Nick.Adamson@generaldynamics.uk.com 06 Sep 2011 13:26 BST
Re: [BCAB] Basic questions About the Kindle Mel Spooner 06 Sep 2011 13:30 BST
Re: [BCAB] Basic questions About the Kindle Ian Macrae 06 Sep 2011 13:56 BST
Re: [BCAB] Basic questions About the Kindle Mel Spooner 06 Sep 2011 14:03 BST
[BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions about Kindle) Clive.Lever@kent.gov.uk 06 Sep 2011 14:15 BST
Re: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions about Kindle) Mel Spooner 06 Sep 2011 14:22 BST
Re: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions about Kindle) Ian Macrae 06 Sep 2011 14:45 BST
Re: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions about Kindle) Mel Spooner 06 Sep 2011 14:51 BST
Re: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions about Kindle) Ian Macrae 06 Sep 2011 15:06 BST
Re: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions about Kindle) Mel Spooner 06 Sep 2011 15:12 BST
Re: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions about Kindle) Ian Macrae 06 Sep 2011 14:43 BST
Re: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions about Kindle) Clive.Lever@kent.gov.uk 06 Sep 2011 15:28 BST
Re: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions about Kindle) Ian Macrae 06 Sep 2011 15:35 BST
Re: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions about Kindle) Clive.Lever@kent.gov.uk 06 Sep 2011 15:44 BST
Re: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions about Kindle) Darren Harris 06 Sep 2011 16:47 BST
Re: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions about Kindle) Clive.Lever@kent.gov.uk 06 Sep 2011 16:52 BST
Re: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions about Kindle) Darren Harris 06 Sep 2011 17:01 BST
Re: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions about Kindle) David Reynolds 06 Sep 2011 14:46 BST
Re: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions about Kindle) Clive.Lever@kent.gov.uk 06 Sep 2011 15:08 BST
Re: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions about Kindle) Gordon Keen 06 Sep 2011 15:41 BST
Re: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions about Kindle) Clive.Lever@kent.gov.uk 06 Sep 2011 15:47 BST
Re: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions about Kindle) Sue & Ian 06 Sep 2011 19:09 BST
Re: [BCAB] Basic questions About the Kindle Nick.Adamson@generaldynamics.uk.com 06 Sep 2011 14:30 BST
[BCAB] Basic question About the Kindle (2) Norman Octon 06 Sep 2011 17:49 BST
Re: [BCAB] Basic question About the Kindle (2) Ian Macrae 07 Sep 2011 10:03 BST

Re: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions about Kindle) Ian Macrae 06 Sep 2011 14:45 BST

So then Mel, let's us, as individuals and the Association on behalf of its members get lobbying! The reason Amazon went for the TTS option in the first place was because blindies hassled them to.

Ian Macrae
Editor
Disability Now
6 Market Road
London
N7 9PW
++44 20 7619 7760 ext 2760
++44 7824 900855

www.disabilitynow.org.uk

-----Original Message-----
From: bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of Mel Spooner
Sent: 06 September 2011 14:23
To: BCAB Discussion List
Subject: Re: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions about Kindle)

Hi Clive,

I fully understand the points you raise concerning product development and cost. I just wonder how much extra cost would be involved as they're half way there. It's almost as though they've just given up!

This all makes me sound very negative about the Kindle, which I am not. I think it's fantastic that a mainstream device which is cool to look at is being made accessible. I just so wish it had a little more accessibility as it has a fairly considerable price tag for very limited functionality.

Mel

Mel Spooner
Service Desk Assistant
mel.spooner@ictservices.org.uk

ICT Services
Environment and Resources
Howitt Court
Sir John Robinson Way
Daybrook
Nottingham NG5 6DA
Tel 0115 854 6116

-----Original Message-----
From: bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of Clive.Lever@kent.gov.uk
Sent: 06 September 2011 14:15
To: bcab@lists.bcab.org.uk
Subject: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions about Kindle)

Hello Mel,

there is a perception among some that if you spend a lot of time making a mainstream product fully accessible to blind people, it will benefit only a few customers, so you it's not commercially viable. Basically, if all that time, money and effort for us won't result in loads more devices being sold, they'll say we can't afford it. Or, it's usually put more succinctly: "Research and development costs are too high, I'm afraid." I was always   appalled that the Roberts radios with DAB which Wireless for the Blind give out still have a tuning system which relies on being able to see the LCD display to use effectively. For me, nothing beats the Sonus T, but sadly there will probably never be another Sonus T. However, from time to time, the subject of analogue radio switch-off rears its ugly head.

There is also a perception developing, that if a book is available on Kindle, it's fully accessible to blind people. It is not, especially if you are using the book to study, and, for instance, you need to spell out difficult foreign words and names. I imagine from discussions this morning that it's not that great if you need to dip in and out of the book, to use it as a reference text. But if it's available on Kindle, the job of making the book accessible is now considered to have been done.

Regards,
Clive

Clive Lever
Diversity and Equality Officer
Kent County Council

Office: 01622 221163
Email: clive.lever@kent.gov.uk

Kent County Council
Room 1.15
Sessions House
Maidstone, Kent.
ME14 1XQ

-----Original Message-----
From: bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of Mel Spooner
Sent: 06 September 2011 14:04
To: BCAB Discussion List
Subject: Re: [BCAB] Basic questions About the Kindle

Does anyone know if there are further plans to develop the text to speech on the Kindle and therefore make it more accessible and functional when using voice output?

I suspect this could be seen as a contentious point, but I wonder why so often, voice output is added to a product making it accessible, but only just, and this is considered acceptable. Why is it that blind people so often have to accept a product that lacks so much of the functionality that is available to sighted people on the same product?

Mel

Mel Spooner
Service Desk Assistant
mel.spooner@ictservices.org.uk

ICT Services
Environment and Resources
Howitt Court
Sir John Robinson Way
Daybrook
Nottingham NG5 6DA
Tel 0115 854 6116

-----Original Message-----
From: bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of Ian Macrae
Sent: 06 September 2011 13:56
To: BCAB Discussion List
Subject: Re: [BCAB] Basic questions About the Kindle

In addition to the points Nick makes below, I'd say that I'd like to see the page forward and back buttons working the same when TTS is on as they do when it's not.  I'd also like to be able to get reports of current reading position more readily and easily than is currently possible, and I'd like an extra notch of speed on the reading voices.  On the other hand, I have absolutely no interest in the kindle being able to read Audible or other audio books.  It should be further developed as a really good and accessible text reader.  Like Nick I'm also not bothered about being able to shop directly from the Kindle as this is perfectly hassle free on a computer.

Ian Macrae
Editor
Disability Now
6 Market Road
London
N7 9PW
++44 20 7619 7760 ext 2760
++44 7824 900855

www.disabilitynow.org.uk

-----Original Message-----
From: bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of Nick.Adamson@generaldynamics.uk.com
Sent: 06 September 2011 13:27
To: bcab@lists.bcab.org.uk
Subject: Re: [BCAB] Basic questions About the Kindle

Hi Mel.

As has been said, maybe just a couple of times, I love my Kindle.

Up until 3 months ago I was a book courier user which by its nature is an accessible device in all ways so my comparison is to that.

The navigation options on the Kindle aren't as good as the BC. If I'm being honest they are a little rudimentary in some cases.
Depending on how the book is created its possible to navigate by chapter using the left and right arrows. Most of the books I've bought from the Kindle store can do this but not all.

I quite regularly fall asleep while reading so navigating backwoods through a book to try to find my place is something I do quite often.
The method I use is to open the book, You will then be taken to the last page which was read. This is fine if you stopped reading and just want to continue. If you want to find a previous place in the book then you:
1. push shift symbol to start reading,
2. work out you fell asleep listening.
3. push shift symbol to stop reading,
4. use left arrow if the book supports chapter navigation.
5. if it doesn't then push the page up key multiple times, The Kindle can take a couple of seconds to do this, Pushing it 20 or so times can take around 5 seconds to do. Navigating forward is much quicker.
6. push shift symbol to start reading and check your location.
7. repeat steps 4 to 6 until you find your place.

As said the BC was better at doing this sort of thing but its not that hard on the kindle.
One thing I've found helps is to make sure as much text is on the screen at a time. This means that the page up and page down method skips quite a chunk, a minute or so's reading, at a time. As I don't use the screen having a tiny font doesn't bother me.

I keep thinking that I should do some sort of audio demo and tutorial of this stuff as for me the Kindle is great and with a couple of work arounds mostly accessible.
Having said that, if I could use the kindle store with the book courier would I use the Kindle? My initial answer when I wrote this email was I'd probably use the BC, but I'm honestly not sure. The Kindle is a lot more stable and quicker to load stuff on to, things like navigation and file support is better on the BC.

For me, Amazon have to do 3 things to make this a perfect device for me.
1. Improve navigation so its easier to navigate by bigger chunks.
2. put some sort of sleep timer functionality on it.
3. make it much better at playing MP£ audio books, although music playback is supported its barely usable.

A big issue often mentioned is access to the kindle store on the Kindle its self.
Personally I don't see this as such a problem. My phone or computer provide perfectly fine access to the store and they are probably better than doing it than some audio thing on the Kindle. We all know how long and how hard the screen reader manufacturers have to work to get good web access and that is all the Kindle is doing, It's a web browser that takes you to the Amazon website.

Any questions don't hesitate to ask.
Thanks.
Nick.

Nick Adamson
Software Engineer

C4I Systems

 General Dynamics United Kingdom Limited Bryn Brithdir, Oakdale Business Park, Blackwood, South Wales, NP12 4AA

Telephone: +44 (0) 1495 236467
Email: Nick.Adamson@generaldynamics.uk.com
Website: www.generaldynamics.uk.com

Please consider the environment before printing this email

-----Original Message-----
From: bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of Mel Spooner
Sent: Tuesday, 06 September 2011 11:38
To: BCAB Discussion List
Subject: [BCAB] Basic questions About the Kindle

Hi All,

I don't have a Kindle currently but until last week I was very interested in getting one. However, I had the opportunity to look at one and felt very discouraged.

I have heard one or two blind people saying they love their Kindles so I'm hoping that my first impressions were somewhat inaccurate.

It seemed to me that it was virtually impossible to find one's way around a book, to navigate by chapter or page if one had lost one's place for instance. I came away with the impression that if all you need is to set a book reading and listen, then it is good. However, if you need to skip back because you've fallen asleep, or reference a book, then it really hasn't got there in terms of accessibility.

Are my first impressions correct, or have I missed something? Has anyone written any documentation on accessing the Kindle accessibly? I'd particularly like to hear from those who are loving their Kindles to find out how you are using them.

Thanks in advance.

Mel

Mel Spooner
Service Desk Assistant
mel.spooner@ictservices.org.uk

ICT Services
Environment and Resources
Howitt Court
Sir John Robinson Way
Daybrook
Nottingham NG5 6DA
Tel 0115 854 6116

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