[BCAB] Thanks Tristram Gerard Sadlier 06 Sep 2011 17:35 BST

On 9/6/11, bcab-request@lists.bcab.org.uk
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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: It's accessible,	but only just (was basic questions about
>       Kindle) (Gordon Keen)
>    2. Re: It's accessible,	but only just (was basic questions about
>       Kindle) (Clive.Lever@kent.gov.uk)
>    3. Re: Kindle 4 (Tristram Llewellyn)
>    4. Re: Windows explorer and win 7 Reply to Tristram
>       (Tristram Llewellyn)
>    5. Re: It's accessible,	but only just (was basic questions about
>       Kindle) (Clive.Lever@kent.gov.uk)
>    6. Creating and re-naming folders in Outlook 2010 (Barry Hill)
>    7. Re: Kindle 4 (George Bell)
>    8. Re: It's accessible,	but only just (was basic questions about
>       Kindle) (Darren Harris)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 15:41:49 +0100
> From: Gordon Keen <gordonkeen@googlemail.com>
> To: BCAB Discussion List <bcab@lists.bcab.org.uk>
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] It's accessible,	but only just (was basic
> 	questions about Kindle)
> Message-ID: <D9380EE1-CCBD-456A-A38F-8BE98EC2FFB4@googlemail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I think that manufacturers who embrace access at the design stage are often
> surprised by the sighted consumer's uptake - it likely never occurred to
> them that sighted readers would want to keep reading while driving by simply
> enabling tts in their cars.
>
> This may be why apple have maintained a high level of development with
> voiceover and incorporated it in to so many of their products.
>
> BTW plaudits are due to Ian Mcrae for pushing the concept over the years
> too.
>
> Regards
>
> From Bridgerule in glorious Devon, England.
> On 6 Sep 2011, at 14:46, David Reynolds wrote:
>
>> This is why accessibility needs to be part of the original concept. Over
>> the
>> years, I've had to deal with various companies on this one, and it comes
>> down to the fact that accessibility wasn't considered at all. Further to
>> this, if accessibility is part of the original concept, the costs are
>> likely
>> to be far less.
> etc
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 15:44:19 +0100
> From: <Clive.Lever@kent.gov.uk>
> To: <bcab@lists.bcab.org.uk>
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] It's accessible,	but only just (was basic
> 	questions about Kindle)
> Message-ID:
> 	<1493B941D0E27348898619FFF18E597001CF2B12@kcc-exc09.invicta.cantium.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Here here! The best thing they did was to develop the technology. The worst
> thing they did was to jump to the wrong conclusion when the talking version
> didn't sell, and to shout their disappointment from the rooftops. A clear
> case of a little learning being a dangerous thing.
>
>
> Best,
> Clive
>
>
>
> Clive Lever
> Diversity and Equality Officer
> Kent County Council
>
> Office: 01622 221163
> Email: clive.lever@kent.gov.uk
>
> Kent County Council
> Room 1.15
> Sessions House
> Maidstone, Kent.
> ME14 1XQ
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk]
> On Behalf Of Ian Macrae
> Sent: 06 September 2011 15:36
> To: BCAB Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions
> about Kindle)
>
> In Pure's case, Clive, the real answer would have been to do what I
> originally suggested, put in a TTS chip on every set, with an option to
> select it or not.  Would have cost washers, kept the radios from going out
> of date as station names changed and the number of sets they sold would not
> have been a crucial issue.  QED.
>
>
> Ian Macrae
> Editor
> Disability Now
> 6 Market Road
> London
> N7 9PW
> ++44 20 7619 7760 ext 2760
> ++44 7824 900855
>
> www.disabilitynow.org.uk
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk]
> On Behalf Of Clive.Lever@kent.gov.uk
> Sent: 06 September 2011 15:28
> To: bcab@lists.bcab.org.uk
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions
> about Kindle)
>
> Hello Ian,
>
> I suspect that in time the work being done by Apple and Kindle will be the
> turning point, and will bust the myth that mainstreaming is not economically
> viable. If we are given the "It's R and D I'm Afraid" cop-out line, at least
> we can now retort with "What about Apple and Voiceover". In time, I suspect
> the perception will become a thing of the past. I was simply positing a
> possible reason for the  need for the question to be asked: "Why is
> accessibility so often only partial".
>
> I think the mistake that Pure made with Sonus was to introduce two
> identical-looking sets, placed next to each other, often in shops where you
> couldn't realistically demonstrate because of poor reception, price one at
> ?79 and the other at ?89, and see which ones sighted customers bought. Well
> of course they'd go for the cheaper non-speaking option if there was no way
> to demonstrate the benefits of the talking version. They were never going to
> shift enough units putting the alternatives on the shelves in the way they
> did.
>
> Is the Goodmans Freeview available on the high street?
>
>
> Best,
> Clive
>
>
>
> Clive Lever
> Diversity and Equality Officer
> Kent County Council
>
> Office: 01622 221163
> Email: clive.lever@kent.gov.uk
>
> Kent County Council
> Room 1.15
> Sessions House
> Maidstone, Kent.
> ME14 1XQ
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk]
> On Behalf Of Ian Macrae
> Sent: 06 September 2011 14:43
> To: BCAB Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions
> about Kindle)
>
> With respect, Clive, I think that's a bit of a glass-half empty view.  First
> of all, the approach taken both by apple and Amazon in making access
> solutions available as an option as standard on every unit they produce is
> very different from the one where Pure developed a product aimed at a
> specific sector of the market.  Doing it that way turned out to be the
> downfall of the product because they simply did not shift enough units to
> make it commercially worthwhile for them.  With the Kindle and Mac approach,
> if the companies decided to pass on R&D costs for Voiceover and the Kindle's
> TTS, that can be incorporated into the price of every single unit they
> produced making the cost negligible to the individual purchaser.  On your
> other point, I've not heard anyone claim that either Kindle or Kindle
> product is fully accessible.  Nor has anyone I know of said that that's
> things sorted with regard to access to books for blind people.  For a start,
> there is still the matter of those publishers who choose to not enable the
> TTS capability on titles of theirs which go to Kindle.  What I will stand by
> is my claim that my personal access to books and reading has been
> revolutionised in the past nine months, and, for various reasons I've always
> been pretty well off in that area previously.  But now I'm buying and
> reading books on exactly the same terms as anyone else.  At present, for
> instance, I'm reading a massive recently published book on the Kindle
> concerned with Mao's Great Leap Forward, or his great famine, depending on
> your perspective.  My previous option would have been to buy it and give
> myself RSI by scanning it.  In addition, no one is jumping on any
> bandwagons, stinging me for an extra premium to make the Kindle accessible
> as has classically happened with computers and mobile phones.  I'm not
> claiming it's perfect but I wouldn't give mine up.
>
>
> Ian Macrae
> Editor
> Disability Now
> 6 Market Road
> London
> N7 9PW
> ++44 20 7619 7760 ext 2760
> ++44 7824 900855
>
> www.disabilitynow.org.uk
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk]
> On Behalf Of Clive.Lever@kent.gov.uk
> Sent: 06 September 2011 14:15
> To: bcab@lists.bcab.org.uk
> Subject: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions about
> Kindle)
>
> Hello Mel,
>
> there is a perception among some that if you spend a lot of time making a
> mainstream product fully accessible to blind people, it will benefit only a
> few customers, so you it's not commercially viable. Basically, if all that
> time, money and effort for us won't result in loads more devices being sold,
> they'll say we can't afford it. Or, it's usually put more succinctly:
> "Research and development costs are too high, I'm afraid." I was always
> appalled that the Roberts radios with DAB which Wireless for the Blind give
> out still have a tuning system which relies on being able to see the LCD
> display to use effectively. For me, nothing beats the Sonus T, but sadly
> there will probably never be another Sonus T. However, from time to time,
> the subject of analogue radio switch-off rears its ugly head.
>
> There is also a perception developing, that if a book is available on
> Kindle, it's fully accessible to blind people. It is not, especially if you
> are using the book to study, and, for instance, you need to spell out
> difficult foreign words and names. I imagine from discussions this morning
> that it's not that great if you need to dip in and out of the book, to use
> it as a reference text. But if it's available on Kindle, the job of making
> the book accessible is now considered to have been done.
>
> Regards,
> Clive
>
>
>
>
> Clive Lever
> Diversity and Equality Officer
> Kent County Council
>
> Office: 01622 221163
> Email: clive.lever@kent.gov.uk
>
> Kent County Council
> Room 1.15
> Sessions House
> Maidstone, Kent.
> ME14 1XQ
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk]
> On Behalf Of Mel Spooner
> Sent: 06 September 2011 14:04
> To: BCAB Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] Basic questions About the Kindle
>
> Does anyone know if there are further plans to develop the text to speech on
> the Kindle and therefore make it more accessible and functional when using
> voice output?
>
> I suspect this could be seen as a contentious point, but I wonder why so
> often, voice output is added to a product making it accessible, but only
> just, and this is considered acceptable. Why is it that blind people so
> often have to accept a product that lacks so much of the functionality that
> is available to sighted people on the same product?
>
> Mel
>
> Mel Spooner
> Service Desk Assistant
> mel.spooner@ictservices.org.uk
>
> ICT Services
> Environment and Resources
> Howitt Court
> Sir John Robinson Way
> Daybrook
> Nottingham NG5 6DA
> Tel 0115 854 6116
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk]
> On Behalf Of Ian Macrae
> Sent: 06 September 2011 13:56
> To: BCAB Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] Basic questions About the Kindle
>
> In addition to the points Nick makes below, I'd say that I'd like to see the
> page forward and back buttons working the same when TTS is on as they do
> when it's not.  I'd also like to be able to get reports of current reading
> position more readily and easily than is currently possible, and I'd like an
> extra notch of speed on the reading voices.  On the other hand, I have
> absolutely no interest in the kindle being able to read Audible or other
> audio books.  It should be further developed as a really good and accessible
> text reader.  Like Nick I'm also not bothered about being able to shop
> directly from the Kindle as this is perfectly hassle free on a computer.
>
>
> Ian Macrae
> Editor
> Disability Now
> 6 Market Road
> London
> N7 9PW
> ++44 20 7619 7760 ext 2760
> ++44 7824 900855
>
> www.disabilitynow.org.uk
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk]
> On Behalf Of Nick.Adamson@generaldynamics.uk.com
> Sent: 06 September 2011 13:27
> To: bcab@lists.bcab.org.uk
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] Basic questions About the Kindle
>
> Hi Mel.
>
> As has been said, maybe just a couple of times, I love my Kindle.
>
> Up until 3 months ago I was a book courier user which by its nature is an
> accessible device in all ways so my comparison is to that.
>
> The navigation options on the Kindle aren't as good as the BC. If I'm being
> honest they are a little rudimentary in some cases.
> Depending on how the book is created its possible to navigate by chapter
> using the left and right arrows. Most of the books I've bought from the
> Kindle store can do this but not all.
>
> I quite regularly fall asleep while reading so navigating backwoods through
> a book to try to find my place is something I do quite often.
> The method I use is to open the book, You will then be taken to the last
> page which was read. This is fine if you stopped reading and just want to
> continue. If you want to find a previous place in the book then you:
> 1. push shift symbol to start reading,
> 2. work out you fell asleep listening.
> 3. push shift symbol to stop reading,
> 4. use left arrow if the book supports chapter navigation.
> 5. if it doesn't then push the page up key multiple times, The Kindle can
> take a couple of seconds to do this, Pushing it 20 or so times can take
> around 5 seconds to do. Navigating forward is much quicker.
> 6. push shift symbol to start reading and check your location.
> 7. repeat steps 4 to 6 until you find your place.
>
> As said the BC was better at doing this sort of thing but its not that hard
> on the kindle.
> One thing I've found helps is to make sure as much text is on the screen at
> a time. This means that the page up and page down method skips quite a
> chunk, a minute or so's reading, at a time. As I don't use the screen having
> a tiny font doesn't bother me.
>
> I keep thinking that I should do some sort of audio demo and tutorial of
> this stuff as for me the Kindle is great and with a couple of work arounds
> mostly accessible.
> Having said that, if I could use the kindle store with the book courier
> would I use the Kindle? My initial answer when I wrote this email was I'd
> probably use the BC, but I'm honestly not sure. The Kindle is a lot more
> stable and quicker to load stuff on to, things like navigation and file
> support is better on the BC.
>
> For me, Amazon have to do 3 things to make this a perfect device for me.
> 1. Improve navigation so its easier to navigate by bigger chunks.
> 2. put some sort of sleep timer functionality on it.
> 3. make it much better at playing MP? audio books, although music playback
> is supported its barely usable.
>
> A big issue often mentioned is access to the kindle store on the Kindle its
> self.
> Personally I don't see this as such a problem. My phone or computer provide
> perfectly fine access to the store and they are probably better than doing
> it than some audio thing on the Kindle. We all know how long and how hard
> the screen reader manufacturers have to work to get good web access and that
> is all the Kindle is doing, It's a web browser that takes you to the Amazon
> website.
>
> Any questions don't hesitate to ask.
> Thanks.
> Nick.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Nick Adamson
> Software Engineer
>
> C4I Systems
>
>  General Dynamics United Kingdom Limited Bryn Brithdir, Oakdale Business
> Park, Blackwood, South Wales, NP12 4AA
>
> Telephone: +44 (0) 1495 236467
> Email: Nick.Adamson@generaldynamics.uk.com
> Website: www.generaldynamics.uk.com
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this email
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk]
> On Behalf Of Mel Spooner
> Sent: Tuesday, 06 September 2011 11:38
> To: BCAB Discussion List
> Subject: [BCAB] Basic questions About the Kindle
>
> Hi All,
>
> I don't have a Kindle currently but until last week I was very interested in
> getting one. However, I had the opportunity to look at one and felt very
> discouraged.
>
> I have heard one or two blind people saying they love their Kindles so I'm
> hoping that my first impressions were somewhat inaccurate.
>
> It seemed to me that it was virtually impossible to find one's way around a
> book, to navigate by chapter or page if one had lost one's place for
> instance. I came away with the impression that if all you need is to set a
> book reading and listen, then it is good. However, if you need to skip back
> because you've fallen asleep, or reference a book, then it really hasn't got
> there in terms of accessibility.
>
> Are my first impressions correct, or have I missed something? Has anyone
> written any documentation on accessing the Kindle accessibly? I'd
> particularly like to hear from those who are loving their Kindles to find
> out how you are using them.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Mel
>
> Mel Spooner
> Service Desk Assistant
> mel.spooner@ictservices.org.uk
>
> ICT Services
> Environment and Resources
> Howitt Court
> Sir John Robinson Way
> Daybrook
> Nottingham NG5 6DA
> Tel 0115 854 6116
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 14:44:29 +0000
> From: Tristram Llewellyn <tristram.llewellyn@sightandsound.co.uk>
> To: 'BCAB Discussion List' <bcab@lists.bcab.org.uk>
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] Kindle 4
> Message-ID:
> 	<7B360B3243C29843A7D614A99D3606C50397DC9B@sasex01.sightandsound.co.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> There are lots of rumours but little fact about Amazon's next hardware
> release.  However a lot of technology pundits have their money on something
> that will attempt to compete with Apple and the iPad.  The established
> Kindle readers have their uses and market but what Amazon require is a
> device that supports more of the content they currently sell and drive
> further sales.
>
> I have no idea how accessibility will figure in this, but I would guess it
> is not a major priority compared to the needs above.  The best guesses seem
> to suggest the next release is expected to be an Android type device with
> Amazon providing a layer on top providing integration for their services and
> products.
>
> Regards.
>
> Tristram Llewellyn
> Technical Support
> Sight and Sound Technology
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk]
> On Behalf Of Howie, Sam
> Sent: 06 September 2011 14:34
> To: bcab@lists.bcab.org.uk
> Subject: [BCAB] Kindle 4
>
> All
> Did a quick google search and there is mention of a new release of the
> kindle version 4 due in 2011 has anyone else heard about this in terms of
> will it possibly rectify any of the issues mentioned in previous mails
> regarding the kindle. Personally I would like to see the ability to add
> other voices.
> Sam
>
>
> Sam Howie
> Resource Worker
> Performance & Information Systems
> Ground Floor Wheatley House
> 25 Cochrane Street
> Glasgow
> G1 1HL
> 0141 276 2258
> mailto: sam.howie@glasgow.gov.uk<mailto:sam.howie@sw.glasgow.gov.uk>
>
>
> Glasgow - Proud Host City of the 2014 Commonwealth Games
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> This message is intended only for use of the addressee. If this message
> was sent to you in error, please notify the sender and delete this message.
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> scan attachments. Views expressed in this message do not necessarily reflect
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> --
> To find out more about BCAB and the benefits that membership can bring,
> please visit our website:
> http://www.bcab.org.uk/
>
> To manage your subscription to the BCAB mailing list, please visit our
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 14:47:34 +0000
> From: Tristram Llewellyn <tristram.llewellyn@sightandsound.co.uk>
> To: 'BCAB Discussion List' <bcab@lists.bcab.org.uk>
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] Windows explorer and win 7 Reply to Tristram
> Message-ID:
> 	<7B360B3243C29843A7D614A99D3606C50397DCC4@sasex01.sightandsound.co.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> These are the full steps, I don't know of another way to access this
> feature:
>
> 1	Open start menu and choose "computer" to open an explorer window as usual
> and use the shift+tab key to go to the "command module toolbar organise"
> button and press it with "spacebar".
> 2	Move down the menu and locate the "layout" sub menu and press RIGHT ARROW
> to open it.
> 3	Locate "preview pane checked" and press ENTER to uncheck the item in the
> menu.
>
> Regards.
>
> Tristram Llewellyn
> Technical Support
> Sight and Sound Technology
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk]
> On Behalf Of Gerard Sadlier
> Sent: 06 September 2011 15:12
> To: bcab@lists.bcab.org.uk
> Subject: [BCAB] Windows explorer and win 7 Reply to Tristram
>
> Hi Tristram,
>
> I can't actually find an organize when tabbing. There isn't one. Just
> treeview address edit combo etc. whatever way I have it set up.
> Can this be reached through the menu.
> Thanks,
>
> Ger
>
> --
> To find out more about BCAB and the benefits that membership can bring,
> please visit our website:
> http://www.bcab.org.uk/
>
> To manage your subscription to the BCAB mailing list, please visit our
> website:
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>
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> ______________________________________________________________________
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> ______________________________________________________________________
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 15:47:01 +0100
> From: <Clive.Lever@kent.gov.uk>
> To: <bcab@lists.bcab.org.uk>
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] It's accessible,	but only just (was basic
> 	questions about Kindle)
> Message-ID:
> 	<1493B941D0E27348898619FFF18E597001CF2B13@kcc-exc09.invicta.cantium.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hello,
>
> this brings me back to my original point, that if more companies were as
> smart as Apple about accessibility, there would have been no need for
> the question of limited accessibility to be asked. Before long, they'll
> have to get smart or lose their share of the market.
>
> Regards,
> Clive
>
>
>
>
> Clive Lever
> Diversity and Equality Officer
> Kent County Council
>
> Office: 01622 221163
> Email: clive.lever@kent.gov.uk
>
> Kent County Council
> Room 1.15
> Sessions House
> Maidstone, Kent.
> ME14 1XQ
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk
> [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of Gordon Keen
> Sent: 06 September 2011 15:42
> To: BCAB Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] It's accessible,but only just (was basic questions
> about Kindle)
>
> I think that manufacturers who embrace access at the design stage are
> often surprised by the sighted consumer's uptake - it likely never
> occurred to them that sighted readers would want to keep reading while
> driving by simply enabling tts in their cars.
>
> This may be why apple have maintained a high level of development with
> voiceover and incorporated it in to so many of their products.
>
> BTW plaudits are due to Ian Mcrae for pushing the concept over the years
> too.
>
> Regards
>
> >From Bridgerule in glorious Devon, England.
> On 6 Sep 2011, at 14:46, David Reynolds wrote:
>
>> This is why accessibility needs to be part of the original concept.
>> Over the years, I've had to deal with various companies on this one,
>> and it comes down to the fact that accessibility wasn't considered at
>> all. Further to this, if accessibility is part of the original
>> concept, the costs are likely to be far less.
> etc
> --
> To find out more about BCAB and the benefits that membership can bring,
> please visit our website:
> http://www.bcab.org.uk/
>
> To manage your subscription to the BCAB mailing list, please visit our
> website:
> http://www.bcab.org.uk/bcab-discussion-list/
>
> To discuss matters relating to the mailing list, please email
> moderator@bcab.org.uk.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 15:59:02 +0100
> From: "Barry Hill" <barry.hill3@sky.com>
> To: "BCAB" <bcab@lists.bcab.org.uk>
> Subject: [BCAB] Creating and re-naming folders in Outlook 2010
> Message-ID: <007f01cc6ca5$84aff730$8e0fe590$@sky.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi all
>
> I would appreciate it if someone could tell me how to create and re-name
> folders in Outlook 2010.
>
> Cheers
>
> Barry
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 16:19:38 +0100
> From: "George Bell" <george@techno-vision.co.uk>
> To: "BCAB Discussion List" <bcab@lists.bcab.org.uk>
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] Kindle 4
> Message-ID:
> 	<2F3F00EDC4E5F847BD4E53B36210B8289B8B81@TechnoServer1.techno-vision.co.uk>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="US-ASCII"
>
> I'm not so sure about your accessibility thoughts.  I hear some
> American Universities were considering some hefty purchases, but
> accessibility, or the lack of, was a major issue.
>
> George.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk
> [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of Tristram
> Llewellyn
> Sent: 06 September 2011 15:44
> To: 'BCAB Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] Kindle 4
>
> There are lots of rumours but little fact about Amazon's next hardware
> release.  However a lot of technology pundits have their money on
> something that will attempt to compete with Apple and the iPad.  The
> established Kindle readers have their uses and market but what Amazon
> require is a device that supports more of the content they currently
> sell and drive further sales.
>
> I have no idea how accessibility will figure in this, but I would
> guess it is not a major priority compared to the needs above.  The
> best guesses seem to suggest the next release is expected to be an
> Android type device with Amazon providing a layer on top providing
> integration for their services and products.
>
> Regards.
>
> Tristram Llewellyn
> Technical Support
> Sight and Sound Technology
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk
> [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of Howie, Sam
> Sent: 06 September 2011 14:34
> To: bcab@lists.bcab.org.uk
> Subject: [BCAB] Kindle 4
>
> All
> Did a quick google search and there is mention of a new release of the
> kindle version 4 due in 2011 has anyone else heard about this in terms
> of will it possibly rectify any of the issues mentioned in previous
> mails regarding the kindle. Personally I would like to see the ability
> to add other voices.
> Sam
>
>
> Sam Howie
> Resource Worker
> Performance & Information Systems
> Ground Floor Wheatley House
> 25 Cochrane Street
> Glasgow
> G1 1HL
> 0141 276 2258
> mailto: sam.howie@glasgow.gov.uk<mailto:sam.howie@sw.glasgow.gov.uk>
>
>
> Glasgow - Proud Host City of the 2014 Commonwealth Games
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
> Disclaimer:
> This message is intended only for use of the addressee. If this
> message was sent to you in error, please notify the sender and delete
> this message.
> Glasgow City Council cannot accept responsibility for viruses, so
> please scan attachments. Views expressed in this message do not
> necessarily reflect those of the Council who will not necessarily be
> bound by its contents.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
>
> --
> To find out more about BCAB and the benefits that membership can
> bring, please visit our website:
> http://www.bcab.org.uk/
>
> To manage your subscription to the BCAB mailing list, please visit our
> website:
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>
> To discuss matters relating to the mailing list, please email
> moderator@bcab.org.uk.
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
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>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
> --
> To find out more about BCAB and the benefits that membership can
> bring, please visit our website:
> http://www.bcab.org.uk/
>
> To manage your subscription to the BCAB mailing list, please visit our
> website:
> http://www.bcab.org.uk/bcab-discussion-list/
>
> To discuss matters relating to the mailing list, please email
> moderator@bcab.org.uk.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 16:47:47 +0100
> From: "Darren Harris" <darren_g_harris@btinternet.com>
> To: "'BCAB Discussion List'" <bcab@lists.bcab.org.uk>
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] It's accessible,	but only just (was basic
> 	questions about Kindle)
> Message-ID: <00ac01cc6cac$53c02da0$fb4088e0$@btinternet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi,
>
> Yes the goodmans freeview is available. You can get it from curries and also
> the switchover scheme for digital tv has them available as well. I got mine
> from there.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk]
> On Behalf Of Clive.Lever@kent.gov.uk
> Sent: 06 September 2011 15:28
> To: bcab@lists.bcab.org.uk
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions
> about Kindle)
>
> Hello Ian,
>
> I suspect that in time the work being done by Apple and Kindle will be the
> turning point, and will bust the myth that mainstreaming is not economically
> viable. If we are given the "It's R and D I'm Afraid" cop-out line, at least
> we can now retort with "What about Apple and Voiceover". In time, I suspect
> the perception will become a thing of the past. I was simply positing a
> possible reason for the  need for the question to be asked: "Why is
> accessibility so often only partial".
>
> I think the mistake that Pure made with Sonus was to introduce two
> identical-looking sets, placed next to each other, often in shops where you
> couldn't realistically demonstrate because of poor reception, price one at
> ?79 and the other at ?89, and see which ones sighted customers bought. Well
> of course they'd go for the cheaper non-speaking option if there was no way
> to demonstrate the benefits of the talking version. They were never going to
> shift enough units putting the alternatives on the shelves in the way they
> did.
>
> Is the Goodmans Freeview available on the high street?
>
>
> Best,
> Clive
>
>
>
> Clive Lever
> Diversity and Equality Officer
> Kent County Council
>
> Office: 01622 221163
> Email: clive.lever@kent.gov.uk
>
> Kent County Council
> Room 1.15
> Sessions House
> Maidstone, Kent.
> ME14 1XQ
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk]
> On Behalf Of Ian Macrae
> Sent: 06 September 2011 14:43
> To: BCAB Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions
> about Kindle)
>
> With respect, Clive, I think that's a bit of a glass-half empty view.  First
> of all, the approach taken both by apple and Amazon in making access
> solutions available as an option as standard on every unit they produce is
> very different from the one where Pure developed a product aimed at a
> specific sector of the market.  Doing it that way turned out to be the
> downfall of the product because they simply did not shift enough units to
> make it commercially worthwhile for them.  With the Kindle and Mac approach,
> if the companies decided to pass on R&D costs for Voiceover and the Kindle's
> TTS, that can be incorporated into the price of every single unit they
> produced making the cost negligible to the individual purchaser.  On your
> other point, I've not heard anyone claim that either Kindle or Kindle
> product is fully accessible.  Nor has anyone I know of said that that's
> things sorted with regard to access to books for blind people.  For a start,
> there is still the matter of those publishers who choose to not enable the
> TTS capability on titles of theirs which go to Kindle.  What I will stand by
> is my claim that my personal access to books and reading has been
> revolutionised in the past nine months, and, for various reasons I've always
> been pretty well off in that area previously.  But now I'm buying and
> reading books on exactly the same terms as anyone else.  At present, for
> instance, I'm reading a massive recently published book on the Kindle
> concerned with Mao's Great Leap Forward, or his great famine, depending on
> your perspective.  My previous option would have been to buy it and give
> myself RSI by scanning it.  In addition, no one is jumping on any
> bandwagons, stinging me for an extra premium to make the Kindle accessible
> as has classically happened with computers and mobile phones.  I'm not
> claiming it's perfect but I wouldn't give mine up.
>
>
> Ian Macrae
> Editor
> Disability Now
> 6 Market Road
> London
> N7 9PW
> ++44 20 7619 7760 ext 2760
> ++44 7824 900855
>
> www.disabilitynow.org.uk
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk]
> On Behalf Of Clive.Lever@kent.gov.uk
> Sent: 06 September 2011 14:15
> To: bcab@lists.bcab.org.uk
> Subject: [BCAB] It's accessible, but only just (was basic questions about
> Kindle)
>
> Hello Mel,
>
> there is a perception among some that if you spend a lot of time making a
> mainstream product fully accessible to blind people, it will benefit only a
> few customers, so you it's not commercially viable. Basically, if all that
> time, money and effort for us won't result in loads more devices being sold,
> they'll say we can't afford it. Or, it's usually put more succinctly:
> "Research and development costs are too high, I'm afraid." I was always
> appalled that the Roberts radios with DAB which Wireless for the Blind give
> out still have a tuning system which relies on being able to see the LCD
> display to use effectively. For me, nothing beats the Sonus T, but sadly
> there will probably never be another Sonus T. However, from time to time,
> the subject of analogue radio switch-off rears its ugly head.
>
> There is also a perception developing, that if a book is available on
> Kindle, it's fully accessible to blind people. It is not, especially if you
> are using the book to study, and, for instance, you need to spell out
> difficult foreign words and names. I imagine from discussions this morning
> that it's not that great if you need to dip in and out of the book, to use
> it as a reference text. But if it's available on Kindle, the job of making
> the book accessible is now considered to have been done.
>
> Regards,
> Clive
>
>
>
>
> Clive Lever
> Diversity and Equality Officer
> Kent County Council
>
> Office: 01622 221163
> Email: clive.lever@kent.gov.uk
>
> Kent County Council
> Room 1.15
> Sessions House
> Maidstone, Kent.
> ME14 1XQ
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk]
> On Behalf Of Mel Spooner
> Sent: 06 September 2011 14:04
> To: BCAB Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] Basic questions About the Kindle
>
> Does anyone know if there are further plans to develop the text to speech on
> the Kindle and therefore make it more accessible and functional when using
> voice output?
>
> I suspect this could be seen as a contentious point, but I wonder why so
> often, voice output is added to a product making it accessible, but only
> just, and this is considered acceptable. Why is it that blind people so
> often have to accept a product that lacks so much of the functionality that
> is available to sighted people on the same product?
>
> Mel
>
> Mel Spooner
> Service Desk Assistant
> mel.spooner@ictservices.org.uk
>
> ICT Services
> Environment and Resources
> Howitt Court
> Sir John Robinson Way
> Daybrook
> Nottingham NG5 6DA
> Tel 0115 854 6116
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk]
> On Behalf Of Ian Macrae
> Sent: 06 September 2011 13:56
> To: BCAB Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] Basic questions About the Kindle
>
> In addition to the points Nick makes below, I'd say that I'd like to see the
> page forward and back buttons working the same when TTS is on as they do
> when it's not.  I'd also like to be able to get reports of current reading
> position more readily and easily than is currently possible, and I'd like an
> extra notch of speed on the reading voices.  On the other hand, I have
> absolutely no interest in the kindle being able to read Audible or other
> audio books.  It should be further developed as a really good and accessible
> text reader.  Like Nick I'm also not bothered about being able to shop
> directly from the Kindle as this is perfectly hassle free on a computer.
>
>
> Ian Macrae
> Editor
> Disability Now
> 6 Market Road
> London
> N7 9PW
> ++44 20 7619 7760 ext 2760
> ++44 7824 900855
>
> www.disabilitynow.org.uk
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk]
> On Behalf Of Nick.Adamson@generaldynamics.uk.com
> Sent: 06 September 2011 13:27
> To: bcab@lists.bcab.org.uk
> Subject: Re: [BCAB] Basic questions About the Kindle
>
> Hi Mel.
>
> As has been said, maybe just a couple of times, I love my Kindle.
>
> Up until 3 months ago I was a book courier user which by its nature is an
> accessible device in all ways so my comparison is to that.
>
> The navigation options on the Kindle aren't as good as the BC. If I'm being
> honest they are a little rudimentary in some cases.
> Depending on how the book is created its possible to navigate by chapter
> using the left and right arrows. Most of the books I've bought from the
> Kindle store can do this but not all.
>
> I quite regularly fall asleep while reading so navigating backwoods through
> a book to try to find my place is something I do quite often.
> The method I use is to open the book, You will then be taken to the last
> page which was read. This is fine if you stopped reading and just want to
> continue. If you want to find a previous place in the book then you:
> 1. push shift symbol to start reading,
> 2. work out you fell asleep listening.
> 3. push shift symbol to stop reading,
> 4. use left arrow if the book supports chapter navigation.
> 5. if it doesn't then push the page up key multiple times, The Kindle can
> take a couple of seconds to do this, Pushing it 20 or so times can take
> around 5 seconds to do. Navigating forward is much quicker.
> 6. push shift symbol to start reading and check your location.
> 7. repeat steps 4 to 6 until you find your place.
>
> As said the BC was better at doing this sort of thing but its not that hard
> on the kindle.
> One thing I've found helps is to make sure as much text is on the screen at
> a time. This means that the page up and page down method skips quite a
> chunk, a minute or so's reading, at a time. As I don't use the screen having
> a tiny font doesn't bother me.
>
> I keep thinking that I should do some sort of audio demo and tutorial of
> this stuff as for me the Kindle is great and with a couple of work arounds
> mostly accessible.
> Having said that, if I could use the kindle store with the book courier
> would I use the Kindle? My initial answer when I wrote this email was I'd
> probably use the BC, but I'm honestly not sure. The Kindle is a lot more
> stable and quicker to load stuff on to, things like navigation and file
> support is better on the BC.
>
> For me, Amazon have to do 3 things to make this a perfect device for me.
> 1. Improve navigation so its easier to navigate by bigger chunks.
> 2. put some sort of sleep timer functionality on it.
> 3. make it much better at playing MP? audio books, although music playback
> is supported its barely usable.
>
> A big issue often mentioned is access to the kindle store on the Kindle its
> self.
> Personally I don't see this as such a problem. My phone or computer provide
> perfectly fine access to the store and they are probably better than doing
> it than some audio thing on the Kindle. We all know how long and how hard
> the screen reader manufacturers have to work to get good web access and that
> is all the Kindle is doing, It's a web browser that takes you to the Amazon
> website.
>
> Any questions don't hesitate to ask.
> Thanks.
> Nick.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Nick Adamson
> Software Engineer
>
> C4I Systems
>
>  General Dynamics United Kingdom Limited Bryn Brithdir, Oakdale Business
> Park, Blackwood, South Wales, NP12 4AA
>
> Telephone: +44 (0) 1495 236467
> Email: Nick.Adamson@generaldynamics.uk.com
> Website: www.generaldynamics.uk.com
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this email
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk]
> On Behalf Of Mel Spooner
> Sent: Tuesday, 06 September 2011 11:38
> To: BCAB Discussion List
> Subject: [BCAB] Basic questions About the Kindle
>
> Hi All,
>
> I don't have a Kindle currently but until last week I was very interested in
> getting one. However, I had the opportunity to look at one and felt very
> discouraged.
>
> I have heard one or two blind people saying they love their Kindles so I'm
> hoping that my first impressions were somewhat inaccurate.
>
> It seemed to me that it was virtually impossible to find one's way around a
> book, to navigate by chapter or page if one had lost one's place for
> instance. I came away with the impression that if all you need is to set a
> book reading and listen, then it is good. However, if you need to skip back
> because you've fallen asleep, or reference a book, then it really hasn't got
> there in terms of accessibility.
>
> Are my first impressions correct, or have I missed something? Has anyone
> written any documentation on accessing the Kindle accessibly? I'd
> particularly like to hear from those who are loving their Kindles to find
> out how you are using them.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Mel
>
> Mel Spooner
> Service Desk Assistant
> mel.spooner@ictservices.org.uk
>
> ICT Services
> Environment and Resources
> Howitt Court
> Sir John Robinson Way
> Daybrook
> Nottingham NG5 6DA
> Tel 0115 854 6116
>
> --
> To find out more about BCAB and the benefits that membership can bring,
> please visit our website:
> http://www.bcab.org.uk/
>
> To manage your subscription to the BCAB mailing list, please visit our
> website:
> http://www.bcab.org.uk/bcab-discussion-list/
>
> To discuss matters relating to the mailing list, please email
> moderator@bcab.org.uk.
>
>
> This email and any files attached are intended for the addressee and may
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> recipient, be aware that this email was sent to you in error and you should
> not disclose, distribute, print, copy or make other use of this email or its
> attachments. Such actions, in fact, may be unlawful. In compliance with the
> various Regulations and Acts, General Dynamics United Kingdom Limited
> reserves the right to monitor (and examine for viruses) all emails and email
> attachments, both inbound and outbound. Email communications and their
> attachments may not be secure or error- or virus-free and the company does
> not accept liability or responsibility for such matters or the consequences
> thereof. General Dynamics United Kingdom Limited, Registered Office: 21
> Holborn Viaduct, London EC1A 2DY. Registered in England and Wales No:
> 1911653.
> --
> To find out more about BCAB and the benefits that membership can bring,
> please visit our website:
> http://www.bcab.org.uk/
>
> To manage your subscription to the BCAB mailing list, please visit our
> website:
> http://www.bcab.org.uk/bcab-discussion-list/
>
> To discuss matters relating to the mailing list, please email
> moderator@bcab.org.uk.
>
> Scope is a registered charity (number 208231) and a company limited by
> guarantee (number 520866).
> Our registered office is at 6 Market Road, London N7 9PW, England.
> Our VAT number is 805156939.
>
>
> Visit our website at http://www.scope.org.uk
>
> This message, and any file(s) transmitted with it are confidential and are
> intended only for the person(s) to whom they have been addressed by the
> sender. This message may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If
> you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if you believe it was
> transmitted to you in error, you are required to delete the message and any
> copies of it, and to notify the sender immediately. Any unauthorised
> disclosure, copying, distribution, or printing of this message or
> accompanying files, or unauthorised use of any information contained
> therein, by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) is prohibited and
> may be unlawful.
>
> Any views expressed in this message or in any file(s) transmitted with it
> are those of the author, and may not necessarily represent the views of
> Scope.
>
> --
> To find out more about BCAB and the benefits that membership can bring,
> please visit our website:
> http://www.bcab.org.uk/
>
> To manage your subscription to the BCAB mailing list, please visit our
> website:
> http://www.bcab.org.uk/bcab-discussion-list/
>
> To discuss matters relating to the mailing list, please email
> moderator@bcab.org.uk.
>
> --
> To find out more about BCAB and the benefits that membership can bring,
> please visit our website:
> http://www.bcab.org.uk/
>
> To manage your subscription to the BCAB mailing list, please visit our
> website:
> http://www.bcab.org.uk/bcab-discussion-list/
>
> To discuss matters relating to the mailing list, please email
> moderator@bcab.org.uk.
>
> --
> To find out more about BCAB and the benefits that membership can bring,
> please visit our website:
> http://www.bcab.org.uk/
>
> To manage your subscription to the BCAB mailing list, please visit our
> website:
> http://www.bcab.org.uk/bcab-discussion-list/
>
> To discuss matters relating to the mailing list, please email
> moderator@bcab.org.uk.
>
> Scope is a registered charity (number 208231) and a company limited by
> guarantee (number 520866).
> Our registered office is at 6 Market Road, London N7 9PW, England.
> Our VAT number is 805156939.
>
>
> Visit our website at http://www.scope.org.uk
>
> This message, and any file(s) transmitted with it are confidential and are
> intended only for the person(s) to whom they have been addressed by the
> sender. This message may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If
> you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if you believe it was
> transmitted to you in error, you are required to delete the message and any
> copies of it, and to notify the sender immediately. Any unauthorised
> disclosure, copying, distribution, or printing of this message or
> accompanying files, or unauthorised use of any information contained
> therein, by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) is prohibited and
> may be unlawful.
>
> Any views expressed in this message or in any file(s) transmitted with it
> are those of the author, and may not necessarily represent the views of
> Scope.
>
> --
> To find out more about BCAB and the benefits that membership can bring,
> please visit our website:
> http://www.bcab.org.uk/
>
> To manage your subscription to the BCAB mailing list, please visit our
> website:
> http://www.bcab.org.uk/bcab-discussion-list/
>
> To discuss matters relating to the mailing list, please email
> moderator@bcab.org.uk.
>
> --
> To find out more about BCAB and the benefits that membership can bring,
> please visit our website:
> http://www.bcab.org.uk/
>
> To manage your subscription to the BCAB mailing list, please visit our
> website:
> http://www.bcab.org.uk/bcab-discussion-list/
>
> To discuss matters relating to the mailing list, please email
> moderator@bcab.org.uk.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> --
> To find out more about BCAB and the benefits that membership can bring,
> please visit our website:
> http://www.bcab.org.uk/
>
> To manage your subscription to the BCAB mailing list, please visit our
> website:
> http://www.bcab.org.uk/bcab-discussion-list/
>
> To discuss matters relating to the mailing list, please email
> moderator@bcab.org.uk.
>
>
> End of Bcab Digest, Vol 45, Issue 12
> ************************************
>

--
Best wishes

Gerard Sadlier