Re: [BCAB] VAT exemption on Tvonics set top box Agent Orange 11 Dec 2012 12:54 GMT
Hi Steve, Thanks for taking the time to provide such a clear and helpful explanation. This is indeed a complex area because, as you say, there is a very fine line between products in the different categories such as mainstream but with access built in from the get go, and mainstream but with an access component developed specifically for VI users. Certainly I agree that having access to devices out of the box is by far and away the most preferable approach and Tvonics, Panasonic TVs, the iPhone and other Apple products, are excellent examples of this. Whilst we may loose the VAT exemption for these products in some cases, like you, I'm sure most would agree that the overall benefits of equality of access, ease of use, availability of choice, etc, outweigh any immediate reduction in price we might otherwise benefit from as a result of a VAT exemption for a specific bit of adaptive kit. In fact, in the long term, pushing the inclusive design / accessibility built in agenda may even result in an overall cost reduction for VI customers as compared to current prices of adaptive kit, since the costs of production of the access components will fall and will also be spread across the whole market thus lowering the individual unit cost which we pay. This of course implies a cross-subsidy with non-disabled users paying part of the cost but on the whole, this too is likely to be beneficial in the long term since many non-disabled customers may find as they or their relatives age that they can make use of the accessibility features built into their equipment, which will save them the cost of replacement. But going back to the original point, I still can not really see a justification for certain Apple products such as the iPad benefiting from the VAT exemption, whilst other products such as the Tvonics, or even other products in the Apple stable such as the iPhone not benefiting. This, I can only conclude, is the product of the maxim that hard cases make bad law. Not that I intend to rock the boat: if HMRC wish to give an VAT exemption to VI customers buying the iPhone, that's fine with me. But I wonder how long it will last, or whether it would really stand up in the face of sustained scrutiny. As (hopefully) more and more companies follow Tvonics and Panasonic's lead, this will need to be rationalised. Thanks once again Steve to you and to all at RNIB who work so hard on our behalf behind the scenes, together with industry, to seek improvements in tech access: these products are a testament to this hard work and we should all applaud the effort that goes into these successes. Long may it continue. Kind regards Phil -----Original Message----- From: Bcab [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of Tyler, Steve Sent: 10 December 2012 09:28 To: BCAB Discussion List Subject: Re: [BCAB] VAT exemption on Tvonics set top box hi phil. preface my following comment with this being a complex area, some regional decision making by regional vat offices, and different types of product (specifically assistive, mainstream but with some assistive tech built in, mainstream but fully accessible part and parcel of the product). in the case of tvonics: * it is a mainstream product; * RNIB chooses to sell it with assistive software loaded; * some others do too or will load it on request; * most mainstream outlets do not load it prior to shipping but could do; * In any event a tvonics box bought via the mainstream can be loaded by the user or some-one else with the assistive technology; * and the assistive technology is free at the point of delivery. So, it's a mainstream box with no price differential for accessibility whether pre-loaded or self-loaded; as a mainstream box with no price differential for accessibility addition (ie, the box was not made for blind or partially sighted people specifically, although a piece of software has been developed for it) it would not carry a vat reduction. This will become more common and is already the case in lots of similar but not precisely the same areas. For example, android products are mainstream with talkback built in - talkback can be managed separately inside the operating system with regard to implementation, upgrade, etc; the latest range of panasonic products that have accessibility built in sold at a specific price that come bundled with accessibility features - ie, although accessible, it is a mainstream offering which draws no distinction between who will use it and how it will be used. We have been pushing access built in agenda for some time and are gaining traction in this area; this is one of the side-effects of course of activity like that - but overall I think having accessibility available at the point of sale or easily added after sale with no price differential to the mainstream item is key to ensuring industry begin to deliver in earnest to a market that, until now, has been viewed as niche or irrelevant. steve -----Original Message----- From: Bcab [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of Agent Orange Sent: 06 December 2012 16:51 To: 'BCAB Discussion List' Subject: Re: [BCAB] VAT exemption on Tvonics set top box Thanks Steve, I agree with your reasoning. Taking that same reasoning further, it's strange perhaps then that the Tvonics set top box isn't also VAT free given that it is only sold in its adapted form, ie with the speech features included, by the RNIB. In all other retailers such as John Lewis, the box is sold without the adaptations for visually impaired users. On this basis, I would have thought that it ought to qualify to be VAT exempt when sold by the RNIB with the special adaptations, but not when sold elsewhere without the special adaptations. Do any listers who work for RNIB have any thoughts or information on this? With thanks, and kind regards Phil -----Original Message----- From: Bcab [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of Steven Bingham Sent: 06 December 2012 12:23 To: 'BCAB Discussion List' Subject: Re: [BCAB] VAT exemption on Tvonics set top box Looking at the HMRC site does not help at all. The VAT relief should only be given in cases where a device has been 'specially adapted, or 'made' specifically for the use of disabled people. So, I think it comes down to the wording used in the advertising or specifications of the devices. The user is also required to be able to prove their disability. So it would appear to come down to whether or not HMRC are convinced that a device has been specially made or adapted for the use of disabled persons. As products such as the iphone and panysonic TVs are all made the same with the adaptations built-in it is hard to say that they have been specially made or adapted. So perhaps VAT relief should not be available at all. Steve -----Original Message----- From: Bcab [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of Neela Sent: 05 December 2012 22:18 To: BCAB Discussion List Subject: Re: [BCAB] VAT exemption on Tvonics set top box What about the Panosonic TVs too Phil, that have voice guidance and capability to turn on audio description? I believe RNIB worked with Panosonic to achieve this additional facility. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Agent Orange" <agentorange@talktalk.net> To: <robindavies18@yahoo.co.uk>; "'BCAB Discussion List'" <bcab@lists.bcab.org.uk> Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 9:22 PM Subject: [BCAB] VAT exemption on Tvonics set top box > > Robin, and other listers, > > This is very interesting. > > I can't help wondering why the distinction for VAT purposes between an > iPhone on the one hand, and other voice over products such as an iPad > on the other. > > Equally, I am baffled by the distinction between the Goodmans Smart > Talk set top box which I understand is sold VAT free, and the Tvonics > set top box on which VAT must be paid. I am particularly interested > in this difference as I am considering buying a Tvonics box and I > can't ascertain from RNIB - despite having asked - why VAT is payable > on it given that it comprises a special adaptation for the use of > visually impaired people. > > Can anyone shed any light on the answer? > > With thanks > > Phil > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bcab [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf Of R > DAVIES > Sent: 05 December 2012 16:56 > To: 'BCAB Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [BCAB] VAT exemption on VoiceOver products > > Hi > > I promised to update the list on this subject once I had visited the > Apple store in Covent Garden, London and explored the possibility of > VAT exemption for VO supported products. I had been informed that this > store was the most familiar with VO support and serving blind and > visually impaired customers. > > I visited them yesterday in order to purchase an I Pad and an I Phone, > accompanied by my partner and my guide dog. > > The staff was wonderfully helpful and aware that VAT exemption applied > for blind and visually impaired customers on all VO products with the > exception of the I Phone. Why there was this difference was not made > clear. > > We were taken to a quiet upstairs room so the VAT Exemption form could > be completed and signed and no supporting documentation was requested. > I did have my council registration card as a blind resident and proof > of residence with me just in case. Mind you the 36 kilo guide dog on > my wrist may have been proof enough! > > On discussing the lack of this benefit for the I Phone it was > explained that the only way this could be done for this product was > for Apple to take the hit as they would still have to pay the VAT even > if it was waived for me. > Only the store manager could agree to such a step. > > After discussing my RNIB and BCAB memberships and my awareness that > the RNIB held regular training sessions at this Apple store together > with my joint purchase of both an I Pad and an I Phone it was > eventually agreed to waive the VAT for the I Phone as well, an > excellent outcome. However, there was then an additional step where > the purchase had to be dealt with differently through the payment > system and not as a VAT Exemption process. > This apparently lodged the reduction, equivalent to the VAT due, as a > charge against the store sales income somehow. > > So it seems clear that VAT exemption does apply for all Apple VO > supported products, apart from the I Phone, and can be asked for. > However, obtaining a similar or equivalent reduction for a new I Phone > depends on the willingness and attitude of the local manager rather > than a formal procedure or agreement with Customs and Revenue. > > I hope this is of help to any listers considering new Apple purchases > and able to get to the Covent Garden store or any other Apple store > with an active VIP client base. > > Regards > Robin > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bcab [mailto:bcab-bounces@lists.bcab.org.uk] On Behalf of Vince > Thacker > Sent: 18 October 2012 12:56 > To: BCAB Discussion List > Subject: Re: [BCAB] VAT exemption on VoiceOver products > > Sounds as if the Apple Store had this very well sorted out. You can > get VAT exemptions on all sorts of things, but the procedure can be a > lot more cumbersome. > > The rules are spelt out here.... > > http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/sectors/consumers/disabled.htm > > Vince. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jackie Cairns" <jackie.cairnsplace@btinternet.com> > To: <access-uk@freelists.org>; "'BCAB Discussion List'" > <bcab@lists.bcab.org.uk> > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 9:50 AM > Subject: [BCAB] VAT exemption on VoiceOver products > > >> All, >> >> I had the opportunity of visiting the Apple store in Belfast yesterday. >> While there, I discovered that people who are registered as blind, >> deaf or deaf-blind are entitled to receive VAT exemption on VoiceOver >> products. >> That is to say, the Mac range, iPad, iPhone, and iPod range. This >> does not include any accessories. All you need to do is take some >> kind of proof if your impairment is not obvious, and complete and >> sign the VAT exemption form a store staff member will give you. You >> can then purchase your VoiceOver product there and then. >> >> This information was offered to me without my even thinking about >> asking as I had absolutely no idea Apple products come under VAT >> exemption. >> >> I thought you might like to know. >> >> Kind Regards, >> >> Jackie Cairns >> >> >> -- >> To find out more about BCAB and the benefits that membership can >> bring, please visit our website: >> http://www.bcab.org.uk/ >> >> To manage your subscription to the BCAB mailing list, please visit >> our >> website: >> http://www.bcab.org.uk/bcab-discussion-list/ >> >> To discuss matters relating to the mailing list, please email >> moderator@bcab.org.uk. > > > -- > To find out more about BCAB and the benefits that membership can > bring, please visit our website: > http://www.bcab.org.uk/ > > To manage your subscription to the BCAB mailing list, please visit our > website: > http://www.bcab.org.uk/bcab-discussion-list/ > > To discuss matters relating to the mailing list, please email > moderator@bcab.org.uk. > > > -- > To find out more about BCAB and the benefits that membership can > bring, please visit our website: > http://www.bcab.org.uk/ > > To manage your subscription to the BCAB mailing list, please visit our > website: > http://www.bcab.org.uk/bcab-discussion-list/ > > To discuss matters relating to the mailing list, please email > moderator@bcab.org.uk. > > > -- > To find out more about BCAB and the benefits that membership can > bring, please visit our website: > http://www.bcab.org.uk/ > > To manage your subscription to the BCAB mailing list, please visit our > website: > http://www.bcab.org.uk/bcab-discussion-list/ > > To discuss matters relating to the mailing list, please email > moderator@bcab.org.uk. -- To find out more about BCAB and the benefits that membership can bring, please visit our website: http://www.bcab.org.uk/ To manage your subscription to the BCAB mailing list, please visit our website: http://www.bcab.org.uk/bcab-discussion-list/ To discuss matters relating to the mailing list, please email moderator@bcab.org.uk. -- To find out more about BCAB and the benefits that membership can bring, please visit our website: http://www.bcab.org.uk/ To manage your subscription to the BCAB mailing list, please visit our website: http://www.bcab.org.uk/bcab-discussion-list/ To discuss matters relating to the mailing list, please email moderator@bcab.org.uk. -- To find out more about BCAB and the benefits that membership can bring, please visit our website: http://www.bcab.org.uk/ To manage your subscription to the BCAB mailing list, please visit our website: http://www.bcab.org.uk/bcab-discussion-list/ To discuss matters relating to the mailing list, please email moderator@bcab.org.uk. 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